Gun laws do they work

I suppose that us being in agreement in this thread and so far apart on the cyber bullying is what makes life and relationships interesting.

Brian

How true. It is said, that all on the left are on the right on something, and that all on the right are on the left on something. I am not sure what I am on the left on, but whatever it is I ask the Lord right here and now for forgiveness. :)
 
I suppose that us being in agreement in this thread and so far apart on the cyber bullying is what makes life and relationships interesting.

Nothing can be done quickly, and America seems to suffer from the modern desease of wanting things to be instant, but a law restricting the number and type of guns that can be held and more importantly the number of rounds of ammunition would be a start, with the removal of all rights of ownership if the law is broken.

6-10 rounds in a handgun should be enough for defence

Agreed on both points.
 
The first one of course.

You're living in the past. Teamsters & teacher's unions have been declining in power for years now. The gun lobby is so powerful that after a mass shooting, politicians are scared to talk about gun control. That's sad.

Well of course they are powerful. Should the gun people lay back, and wait until the anti-gun lobby people catch up. They are strong because they have the backing of gun industries. Gun industries have the big buck because so many people buy guns and ammo. I don’t belonging to the NRA, but I use to when I was a police officer, but if the anti-gun lobby keeps pushing I might just join again.

Yet what gun-control measure could have prevented this crime? The state of Connecticut already has certain gun-control laws in place, at least three of which the shooter broke, as he could have only obtained the weapons through illegal means.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2012/12/gun-control-laws-failed-connecticut-children/#eKrgDGbLBlYlTHXk.99

At least 3 laws he broke. If we had 6 laws would he have said, ok they got me, three laws I can brake, but 6 that’s too much. Let’s try and fix why wack jobs are walking the streets.
This next part is stranger than fiction. Not in 1000 years would I have guessed that Harry Reid and I would have agreed on anything. Old Harry has not been known to be scared off by Conservative lobbies Go Harry Baby!!!
Gun control has been a low priority for most U.S. politicians due to the widespread popularity of guns in America and the clout of the pro-gun National Rifle Association. Most Republicans and many Democrats, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, are firm allies of the group. Read more - http://www.reuters.com/article/2012...-connecticut-guncontrol-idUSBRE8BF0DH20121216
 
At least 3 laws he broke. If we had 6 laws would he have said, ok they got me, three laws I can brake, but 6 that’s too much.

Of course not. People who are intent on breaking the law and committing harm are going to try their best to do so. However, if no one is allowed to own high-capacity magazines and assault rifles, then where would this kid have gotten one?

I don't think we have all the details yet, but preliminary information says that his mother choose to purchase these items legally. What need did she have for an assault rifle and a high-capacity clip? If the shooter would have killed just her, while it still would have been sad, it would have been contained. Instead, many more deaths occurred as a direct result of her choice to purchase these items.

Let’s try and fix why wack jobs are walking the streets.

We can do that as well. But remember, conservatives have been very hesitant to allocate suitable resources to support our mental health institutions. If I recall correctly, it was the conservative demi-god Reagan that slashed funding for mental institutions.
 
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This morning CNBC had this very good interview. Link to the video webpage. Gun Sales & Mental Health an interview with Clayton Crammer. Unfortunately, the video - after a significant time delay finally came-up but became "stuck" by buffering. I suspect that a lot of people are attempting to access it at the same time. I hope that you would have an opportunity to view it.

Essentially, Dr. Cramer says that the basic issue is mental health and not gun control.

CNBC Summary
CNBC's Mary Thompson. Clayton Cramer, College of Western Idaho, discusses how we can deal with mental health issues surrounding random acts of murder in this country.

My addition to the question of "Gun Laws do they Work?"; is the superficial obvious response that there is always a way to get around a particular law and that it is people who are responsible for their own behavior.

But at a deeper cultural level; we are moving from a society of personal responsibility to viewing the Federal government (not State) as being responsible for managing society (Nanny State). To phrase this a bit differently; the US is moving from the concept of a limited Federal government to a police state Federal government.

  1. Through gun laws, we are legislating behavior. Guns are different than eating habits, but look at the emergence of the "food police" as a parallel attack on behavioral freedom.
  2. Witness the creation of the Department of Homeland Security.
  3. The public reactions to Hurricanes Katrina and Sandy. (Yes, there are times when Federal intervention would be necessary when local resources are overwhelmed, but the the trend is to expect it on a routine basis rather than as an exception.)
 
Steve said

My addition to the question of "Gun Laws do they Work?"; is the superficial obvious response that there is always a way to get around a particular law and that it is people who are responsible for their own behavior.

er so we should have no laws and just leave it up to people to behave responsibily?

Brian
 
I think that you need 3 laws for gun control

1 A home may have one handgun for home defence
2 A home may have upto 10 rounds of ammunition for that gun
Violation of these laws will result in the removal of these rights.

3 If the gun is used in a crime the owner of the gun will be deemed an accomplice in any crime upto the point that it is reported missing/stolen.

Of course as has been often said you cannot solve the problem overnight, but to paraphrase Mao each journey starts with a single step.


Brian
 
My addition to the question of "Gun Laws do they Work?"; is the superficial obvious response that there is always a way to get around a particular law and that it is people who are responsible for their own behavior.

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather read the details of a story and find out that a person had to circumvent several barriers in order to get their hands on an assault rifle rather than it simply being in their home.

I agree that people are responsible for their own behavior, but what does that have to do with guns? Everyone should simply be responsible for them self, and then when they are not, we just chalk it up to a crazy person and move on?

If that is the logic you are using, why can't I as a private citizen own a tank if I so choose? I'm responsible.

Through gun laws, we are legislating behavior.

What law doesn't legislate behavior?
 
Everyone should simply be responsible for them self, and then when they are not, we just chalk it up to a crazy person and move on?
Essentially that was the point of Dr. Crammer's remarks. That we need to spend more resources on mental health. I hope that you will have an opportunity to see the video.

If that is the logic you are using, why can't I as a private citizen own a tank if I so choose? I'm responsible.
I will agree that there are reasonable limits. That is why I used the word "superficial" since I was not getting into the nuances. Actually, I read somewhere one funny comment concerning the right to own a gun: that it be limited to musket technology as it existed at the time the Constitution was passed!!!! As a slippery-slope counter example to the tank: maybe we should prohibit knives since they can be used as offensive weapons too!

What law doesn't legislate behavior?
I don't have a problem with laws - for example - concerning environmental protection; where one can assert that those laws require that a person/company act (modify their behavior) in a certain manner to protect the environment. The intent of my comment was concerning laws such as Mayor Bloomberg's soda ban that restrict your "right" to eat what you want. One can make a similar assertions concerning marijuana and prostitution.
 
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I will agree that there are reasonable limits. That is why I used the word "superficial" since I was not getting into the nuances.

So what would be your rationale for reasonable limits? Is it because a tank has the capacity for mass slaughter, or a different reason?

As a slippery-slope counter example to the tank: maybe we should prohibit knives since they can be used as offensive weapons too!

Assuming that your agreement with reasonable limits stems from the fact that tanks, jets, bombs, etc have the potential for mass slaughter, than this is a false equivalency. It is an argument that I hear often from those that are pro-gun, but it really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

So, assuming that we agree that it is reasonable to limit weapons capable of mass slaughter, then I guess we're on to deciding just how much killing power is acceptable in the hands of citizens. Any thoughts?

I don't have a problem with laws - for example - concerning environmental protection; where one can assert that those laws require that a person/company act (modify their behavior) in a certain manner to protect the environment. The intent of my comment was concerning laws such as Mayor Bloomberg's soda ban that restrict your "right" to eat what you want. One can make a similar assertions concerning marijuana and prostitution.

Every law modifies or restricts behavior. That's exactly their purpose.

It sounds to me like you're railing against laws that deal with so-called "victim-less" crimes. I'm all for legalizing pot and prostitution - those laws seem to be hold overs from earlier religious influence.

Other laws, such as a requirement to wear a safety belt when operating a motor vehicle are a bit trickier. I really don't care if someone chooses to wear their safety belt or not, but I think there has to be some sort of safeguard in place that prevents the taxpayer from having to pick up the tab for additional injuries that could have easily been prevented by the use of the safety belt.

Same type of deal with smoking. Smoking is terrible for your health, but you can still choose to do it. The problem is, smoking increases health problems, and eventually most people end up on a government-subsidized health plan (medicare, for example). Therefore the smoker costs the government (and thus tax payers) more money than the non-smoker.

This of course brings up the issue of allowing/forcing people to opt-out of government-subsidized healthcare if they choose to continue these bad habits. That then runs into a doctor's oath to always treat a patient in need.
 
Of course not. People who are intent on breaking the law and committing harm are going to try their best to do so. However, if no one is allowed to own high-capacity magazines and assault rifles, then where would this kid have gotten one?

Adam I understand and respect your position. I, however, truly don't believe that banning any type of gun will make any difference. If I thought it did, I would be on your side. The problem is not the method, the problem is the perpetrators. A bomb could have killed more, and probable would have been easier. Look at Oklahoma City bombing.


We can do that as well. But remember, conservatives have been very hesitant to allocate suitable resources to support our mental health institutions. If I recall correctly, it was the conservative demi-god Reagan that slashed funding for mental institutions.

If that is true (regan) and I have no reason to doubt it, than he was wrong
 
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Of course as has been often said you cannot solve the problem overnight, but to paraphrase Mao each journey starts with a single step.


Brian

I believe that quote is much older and is attributed to the Chinese philosopher Laozi (c 604 bc - c 531 bc) in the Tao Te Ching, chapter 64 ;)
 
http://www.redstate.com/2012/12/17/...did-gun-control-fail-the-families-of-newtown/

So here’s the challenge for gun control advocates: explain why you failed the people of Newtown. You cited Connecticut as a national example. You said its laws “reduce risks to children.” You gave no state a higher rating for keeping guns out of public places — like schools.
And a criminally insane man stole legally-owned guns (owned under Connecticut’s regime) after being denied their legal purchase, broke in through a window, and killed children and adults — adults who were not armed to shoot back, and so died unable to save the children who also died.
You want this one event to be a national test? Fine. Why are there 20 children dead when the state of Connecticut did what you said they should to keep their people safe?
Once you answer that question, we can get this conversation underway.
 
http://www.redstate.com/2012/12/17/...did-gun-control-fail-the-families-of-newtown/

So here’s the challenge for gun control advocates: explain why you failed the people of Newtown. You cited Connecticut as a national example. You said its laws “reduce risks to children.” You gave no state a higher rating for keeping guns out of public places — like schools.
And a criminally insane man stole legally-owned guns (owned under Connecticut’s regime) after being denied their legal purchase, broke in through a window, and killed children and adults — adults who were not armed to shoot back, and so died unable to save the children who also died.
You want this one event to be a national test? Fine. Why are there 20 children dead when the state of Connecticut did what you said they should to keep their people safe?
Once you answer that question, we can get this conversation underway.


straw_man4.jpg
 
Let us put the blame where it belongs. The mother was a wealthy woman (thru divorce settlement). She took up a hobby of gun collection and target shooting. She collected six guns including semi-automatic rifles. She failed to secure them in her house. Her son (with mental problems) was able to get hold of the guns and did this horrendous act.
The mother failed to connect the dots. There is a lesson for gun owners. Make sure the guns do not fall into the hands of others (even in your own households). I could not believe why this woman needed six guns for self-defense. If you play with fire, sometimes you will get burnt. Unfortunately, in this case, the mother paid the price along with twenty-six other innocent people. Good news: the shooter is dead. He will not kill any more and the society will not have to pay for his room and board.
 
Let us put the blame where it belongs. The mother was a wealthy woman (thru divorce settlement). She took up a hobby of gun collection and target shooting. She collected six guns including semi-automatic rifles. She failed to secure them in her house. Her son (with mental problems) was able to get hold of the guns and did this horrendous act.
The mother failed to connect the dots. There is a lesson for gun owners. Make sure the guns do not fall into the hands of others (even in your own households). I could not believe why this woman needed six guns for self-defense. If you play with fire, sometimes you will get burnt. Unfortunately, in this case, the mother paid the price along with twenty-six other innocent people. Good news: the shooter is dead. He will not kill any more and the society will not have to pay for his room and board.

Well put, of course she may have been as loney as the son, who knows. It is so hard to sort out the looneys before hand.
 

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