Lets Stop George Bush before he Destroys the Whole Planet Earth. (1 Viewer)

KenHigg

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Rich said:
You know one of my best friends at college was an American, one of the nicest people I've ever met. Never preached, never wanted to go and fight in some foreign unjust war, never got into an argument, just wanted to enjoy his life and have a good time. I often wonder what happened to Jess and America :confused:

Would you mind giving some of us the benifit of the doubt that most of us over here in this backward country might be nice people as well... Of course I mean the girls, etc... I've pretty much blown it... ;)
 
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Rich

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KenHigg said:
Of course I realize your desire may be to call into question the root cause of the situation and maybe not Gitmo in particular. ? In which case why don't we just cut to the chase ...
Well the root cause is right wing extremism and paranoia
 
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Rich

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KenHigg said:
Would you mind giving some of us the benifit of the doubt that most of us over here in this backward country might be nice people as well... Of course I mean the girls, etc... I've pretty much blown it... ;)
Some of the girls ;)
 

KenHigg

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Rich said:
Well the root cause is right wing extremism and paranoia

I think the root cause is a basically good man that became President and made some devastating errors in his efforts to do good...
 
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Rich

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KenHigg said:
I think the root cause is a basically good man that became President and made some devastating errors in his efforts to do good...
Good man, come on, he was a liar and a cheat long before he got into office
 

KenHigg

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Before I would make a dogmatic statement like that, I would really like to get to know the man a little better and not base my judgement on what the news people reported... I would hope you wouldn't want someone to write you off based on what a third party has said about you...

Then again, you may be right, but I'll have to pass on making that kind of judgement...
 

Kraj

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Rich said:
Now you tell me were you think I strayed off topic ?:confused:
Gladly.

The essay was a discussion of the nature of freedom, the structure of the United States government, and how the two interact. Other than some silly references to Republican platform positions (which I suspect someone other than the original author tossed in to make it look like the very nature of freedom supports their own political ideology), the essay had nothing to do with specific issues or events. Nor did it draw any conclusions about to what degree the United States actualizes the ideals of freedom described, or make any claims about the degree of freedom enjoyed by those affected by the American government.

Therefore, bringing up a point that illustrates where the United States is hyprocritcal about their human rights practices is off topic. It has nothing to do, whatsoever, with any of the author's assertions about the nature of freedom or the structure of the United States government.

I hope that clears it up for you. ;)
 

Tasslehoff

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Anyone ever heard of Extemporaneous Speaking category in Forensics? It's a form of competitive debate in high school and college where the competitor is given a political yes/no question to answer, has thirty minutes to come up with a seven-minute memorized answer (in five-paragraph format, with at least 9 sources, complete with a special walk to be done while given the speech), and then gives this speech to a judge and an audience.

I started doing this at my high school in 8th grade. By the time tenth grade rolled around I had:
1) learned to lie off the cuff, believably
2) lost all faith in the media as being anything other than pure entertainment
3) lost all faith in my fellow man
4) lost all faith in government
5) lost almost all faith in organized religion
6) decided to never vote and stay away from politics, other than as entertainment

The point is: trying to have serious conversations about politics and thinking on it deeply will wear on your soul until you are like Rich or me--you dig through the shit for the kernal of truth, and the shit rubs off.
 

Kraj

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Tasslehoff said:
The point is: trying to have serious conversations about politics and thinking on it deeply will wear on your soul until you are like Rich or me--you dig through the shit for the kernal of truth, and the shit rubs off.
That's why man invented soap and latex gloves. :D
 

The_Doc_Man

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Rich, your attitude towards America and Americans is obviously taken from ignorance. You fail to understand us.

Asking the Negroes whether it was fun? They didn't participate in your diatribe (so far as I know). But yes, ask them. Ask Leonard Pitt. Ask Colin Powell. Ask Condoleeza Rice. For starters, at least. Ask a lot of highly paid people who happen also to be Negroes.

Don't ask folks of ANY color about ANYTHING until you know your audience better. Black, red, brown, white, yellow (purple, blue, and green if you can find them...) ALL have the same issues: In America, we have the land of opportunity and too many people who are DEAF AS A POST when it comes to hearing when opportunity knocks. If you ask blacks of the 21st century whether something was fun, take the time to see if they have the "you owe me something" or the "I owe this to myself" attitude. THEN (and ONLY then) can you speak of the down-trodden of any color.

America is the land where you have the right to try to make good things happen for yourself. FOR YOURSELF. Don't look to government to do it. Look within YOURSELF. If I read you correctly, your problem is that you don't understand America. It is the land where you have the freedom to try, but there is no guarantee that you will succeed OR FAIL in any enterprise. You have the shot at trying again, though. Just don't be STUPID when you try.

The essay towards which you directed your scorn was perhaps somewhat biased but its factual references (Federalist Papers, for example) were quite accurate. The USA might not be so great, true - but we have an awesome number of immigration applications and tons of illegal immigrants to go with the others. We must be really bad, so many people want to be here.

You know why certain other countries want to destroy us? Because we are the one thing they cannot tolerate - a country that ISN'T blindly bound to religion. (Despite GWB and the "moral majority".) The clerics who rule certain other countries that shall remain nameless here simply cannot abide by the thought that education will set their people free - and at the same time will collapse the secular power that the clerics have amassed. All you have to know comes from an Old Testament reference: Determine whose ox would be gored. Of COURSE they hate us. We are like poison to them. But not to their people - only to those in power who don't give a hoot about their people beyond the next fleecing they can manage.

But I digress. Rich, you can argue against the USA all you wish. You will probably argue against what I have said, too. And you know what? You have the right to do so. But don't try it in certain other countries that are so much "better" than us. So much better that you might disappear and never be heard from again. Even I wouldn't wish that on you, despite your negative attitude.
 

Brianwarnock

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The_Doc_Man said:
But I digress. Rich, you can argue against the USA all you wish. You will probably argue against what I have said, too.


You know what, I don't think I have noticed Rich argueing, making statements , yes, but arguing!

brian
 

pbaldy

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Excellent post, Doc Man.
 
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Rich

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The_Doc_Man said:
Rich, your attitude towards America and Americans is obviously taken from ignorance. You fail to understand us.

Well such a strange post so late in the day but I obviously have to correct one or two myths to say the least.


Asking the Negroes whether it was fun? They didn't participate in your diatribe (so far as I know). But yes, ask them. Ask Leonard Pitt. Ask Colin Powell. Ask Condoleeza Rice. For starters, at least. Ask a lot of highly paid people who happen also to be Negroes.
Well I'm not sure where that came from but simply because a few black high flyers have at last made it doesn't give you the right to take the moral high ground regarding the treatment of Negroes, equality and freedom etc.



In America, we have the land of opportunity

For the vast majority that means if your skin is white


but we have an awesome number of immigration applications and tons of illegal immigrants to go with the others.

I think you'll find that refers to mainly Hispanics



You know why certain other countries want to destroy us?

Yes I do and it has nothing to do with religion or freedom, these are just the excuses fed to you by your leaders to keep your capitalist roots intact.
The very statement that many other countries want to destroy you is in itself mainly nonsense,mainly attributable to paranoia and partly because of your actions on the world stage over the last 50yrs.
It's far too complex a subject to even try and dissect here but basically when you stop treating the world as if you own it then others will look more kindly at you.

Because we are the one thing they cannot tolerate - a country that ISN'T blindly bound to religion.

That statement also applies to most of Europe and has done for far longer, since for the main part Europe isn't subjected to the same levels of hatred as the US your statement cannot be true


Of COURSE they hate us. We are like poison to them.
I'm sure I've pointed this out before but the US is not the great bastion of freedom and democracy that you seem to think, therefore again your reasoning is deeply flawed.

But don't try it in certain other countries that are so much "better" than us.


I'm a little confused here, which countries do you think I've suggested were better?


Even I wouldn't wish that on you, despite your negative attitude.
Which negative attitude are you referring to, the fact that the US claims to be the leader of the free world and then totally ignores the free world's wishes and that I frequently challenge this myth,I didn't think you were that naive.
 

pbaldy

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Rich said:
Ever heard the term "blinded by patriotism"?

Yes, but since I have personal knowledge that many of your un-informed opinions of this country are false (some do have merit), I'd say it doesn't apply here.

I'd ask you, ever heard the term "blinded by ignorance"?
 

KenHigg

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Rich said:
Ever heard the term "blinded by patriotism"?

I also thought it was excellent. Doc, you have my permission to speak on my behalf as an American anytime you please. :) :)
 

pbaldy

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Rich said:
Yes of course, it applies to many of those posting here

And so typical that you would run with the part of my response that could be responded to with a nebulous, sarcastic comment and ignore the part that may have led to a factual discussion. God forbid any facts get in the way of your anti-Americanism.
 
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pbaldy said:
And so typical that you would run with the part of my response that could be responded to with a nebulous, sarcastic comment and ignore the part that may have led to a factual discussion. God forbid any facts get in the way of your anti-Americanism.

There you go, the first thing Americans do when anybody dares to criticise them is to brand them anti American. Hell it's even worse if they're American, they're branded unpatriotic and thrown to the wolves.
What was it that you had difficulty with when I said "blinded by patriotism"?
 

pbaldy

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Anyone who knows me knows I am not shy about criticizing my country or its government. One of my favorite political quotes is by Thomas Jefferson:

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive"

I would certainly agree with you that it's wrong to call anyone who disagrees with the current administration unpatriotic. Frankly, I think it's unpatriotic to NOT criticize government.

My calling you anti-American had less to do with any specific comment today and more from observing hundreds of your posts that criticize the country or her people, more often than not based on incorrect information. The general feel I've gotten is that you don't like us, particularly since you seem to ignore information that doesn't fit your preconceived notions, as you have today.
 

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