Socialism Alert! (1 Viewer)

[Rabbie]

Ah.... Nice research. The must have used it on purpose... Wonder why?

Perhaps the picture was taken in Alaska and they just haven't got round to replacing the flag. After all it is nearly 50 years old

 

[pbaldy]

I love how it's "fair" that the only people expected to pay for something are the ones who won't get a benefit from it. Alexander Tytler said

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury

I think we're in the vicinity of that tipping point where more people get money from the government than pay into it (actually I think we're past it), so I fear an acceleration towards the anarchy that you claim people like me want. I don't want anarchy; I want a limited government that protects all of us, not an "all things to all people" government, which is unsustainable and the failure of which leads to places none of us wants.

 

[Alisa]

I love how it's "fair" that the only people expected to pay for something are the ones who won't get a benefit from it. Alexander Tytler said

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury

I think we're in the vicinity of that tipping point where more people get money from the government than pay into it (actually I think we're past it), so I fear an acceleration towards the anarchy that you claim people like me want. I don't want anarchy; I want a limited government that protects all of us, not an "all things to all people" government, which is unsustainable and the failure of which leads to places none of us wants.

THen how is it that countries in Europe have been around centuries longer than we have AND have more economic systems that are both more fair AND more sustainable than ours?

Yes people are not paying in enough. The people that are not paying in enough are the people who got gargantuan tax cuts under the republicans. The rest of us are already paying our fair share. That is why the burden needs to be equalized, otherwise it will crush the middle class out of existance.

 

[pbaldy]

Well, you've previously ignored my refutation of those points, so I can only assume you will again. Frankly I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I'm way under the cutoff so I should get a nice tax cut from Obama. I don't believe what I do because I think it will benefit me, but because I believe it's best for the country as a whole.

 

[Alisa]

Well, you've previously ignored my refutation of those points, so I can only assume you will again. Frankly I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I'm way under the cutoff so I should get a nice tax cut from Obama. I don't believe what I do because I think it will benefit me, but because I believe it's best for the country as a whole.

You have previously refuted the fact that European countries have been around a lot longer than we have without running themselves into the ground? I must have missed that

 

[Alisa]

I don't believe what I do because I think it will benefit me, but because I believe it's best for the country as a whole.

This is a good point. People like you and me are not the reason this country is in trouble. You and I have been working hard and have been productive members of society. The problem is, we trusted wealthy people and corporations to ALSO do what is best for the country as a whole, and they haven't done it. As is predictable, they have been greedy. Equalizing the tax burden IS good for the country as a whole, it is like medicine that the corporations and the wealthy do not want to take, but they have to take it or nothing will get better.

 

[pbaldy]

I'll repeat my first sentence from post 64 and then head back to the Access forums where I belong.

 

[Banana]

Like pbaldy, I suspect what I contribute will be otherwise ignored but whatever-

It does well to remember that no government in Europe has stood as long as US has- nations has indeed existed longer, but not the government. Weimar Germany is not the same Germany of today, and it has collapsed under hyperinflation.

Likewise, from what I read, Europe seem to be more hit by the financial crisis and Euro is falling against USD. The German finance minister had to eat his words when he proclaimed that US's economy strength was at end on Friday only to bail out several banks on the following Tuesday.

And what is absolutely frightening is this: They're calling that because central banks in various countries couldn't protect against the economy meltdown, we need a world bank or at least coordinated efforts among central bankers... Basically a cartel of central banks (which themselves are a cartel!)

With regards to taxation- if we were to take off taxation in entirety, who would benefit the most? Rich. So the talk about any tax cuts being unfair seems to me akin to complaining that a sunny day is too bright. As for paying 'fair share', pbaldy correctly points out that there is a net deficit- we're paying into the system way less and expecting the system to give us more. This is exactly what make us poorer for it.

I do encourage anybody who is willing to read up on comparative advantage and how this applies to economy. It should then becomes apparent that taxing the rich is ultimately self-defeating, however nice it may sound in theory.

 

[statsman]

Compare the taxes paid by Americans as opposed to the other G8 countires.
Nobody pays less tax or complains more about it.
By the same token, no other G8 country has fewer social programs (NO national health insurance for example).
All these other countries has a social safety net for their citizens (I'll grant you some work better than others). Only in the US can Joe the Plumber lose everything he's worked for his entire life if he gets ill.
Now that the communists have gone to the same place the hippies went to, maybe the US should realize that socialism is not a dirty word.

 

[Alisa]

A timely post from a formerly rabid republican:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/a-pragmatic-def.html

A Pragmatic Defense Of Punitive Taxation
I'm sorry but I cannot use the term "progressive" without some acid reflux. But I do understand why some "spreading the wealth" may be a necessary evil. As a reader writes:

I think there is a prudential reason for maintaining a progressive tax system (and we certainly can argue about "how" progressive it should be): namely, that if you believe, as I do, that the U.S. is best served by maintaining a capitalist system and a free market, we have to accept that one of the natural consequences of such a system is the accumulation of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people.

Regardless of whether these fewer and fewer deserve the money they accumulate or are unfairly being punished by progressive taxation, the political consequence of such an accumulation of wealth is radicalism - a majority that uses its political power to destroy the system rather than simply to modify it.

In other words, progressive taxation is required to maintain the political viability of a free market.
This is also how a pragmatic conservative can still live with an Obama presidency.

We have seen a massive shift in income inequality in the last couple of decades. Over time, that inequality can destabilize a democracy. It removes many from income tax altogether, it concentrates wealth in too few hands who can use it to corrupt the political system, and it leads to an oligarchy susceptible to populist onslaught (hello, Mr Dobbs). Aristotle's advice that polities should be concerned about the strength of the middle class, and that no democracy can long endure without one, is well worth absorbing.

Conservatism is not an ideology. It's a disposition. And sometimes it takes what Oakeshott called "trimming" to keep the ship afloat. Moderation matters. In some ways, I see Obama as a return to moderation in American politics. And it's conservatives who have become ideologues who cannot accept it.

 

[Rich]

It does well to remember that no government in Europe has stood as long as US has-

Your government changes every 4,8 yrs, what are you on about?

 

[Rabbie]

Like pbaldy, I suspect what I contribute will be otherwise ignored but whatever-

It does well to remember that no government in Europe has stood as long as US has- nations has indeed existed longer, but not the government. Weimar Germany is not the same Germany of today, and it has collapsed under hyperinflation.

Likewise, from what I read, Europe seem to be more hit by the financial crisis and Euro is falling against USD. The German finance minister had to eat his words when he proclaimed that US's economy strength was at end on Friday only to bail out several banks on the following Tuesday.

And what is absolutely frightening is this: They're calling that because central banks in various countries couldn't protect against the economy meltdown, we need a world bank or at least coordinated efforts among central bankers... Basically a cartel of central banks (which themselves are a cartel!)

With regards to taxation- if we were to take off taxation in entirety, who would benefit the most? Rich. So the talk about any tax cuts being unfair seems to me akin to complaining that a sunny day is too bright. As for paying 'fair share', pbaldy correctly points out that there is a net deficit- we're paying into the system way less and expecting the system to give us more. This is exactly what make us poorer for it.

I do encourage anybody who is willing to read up on comparative advantage and how this applies to economy. It should then becomes apparent that taxing the rich is ultimately self-defeating, however nice it may sound in theory.

If by Government you mean form of government then you are not correct in saying that No European nation has a form of goverment as old as the USA. What about the UK, Sweden, Switzerland - all european countries with basically the same constitutions they had when the US was founded. I know there have been changes in the meantime but there have been changes to the US constitution as well.

The banking crisis is very much driven by confidence(lack of) and many analysts this side of the Atlantic feel a major factor was the failure of GWB to bail out Lehman Brothers.

There will always be winners and losers in any tax system but it is hard to imagine not having a tax system. IMHO any tax needs to be cheap to administer and to be perceived as fair to avoid creating resentment. A tax that restricts my choice of first (or only) car affects me more than a tax which means I can only afford four cars. Very few high earners are taxed so much that their freedom is resticted to any great extent. Many poorer people feel the burden of both direct and indirect taxes as a real shackle on their freedom.

 

[georgedwilkinson]

It should then becomes apparent that taxing the rich is ultimately self-defeating, however nice it may sound in theory.

But Banana, it's the principle. They deserve to have their wealth taken away so it can be given to the poor, regardless of what it does to overall revenue.

 

[statsman]

George:
There's a reason why the tax codes in most countries are so confusing and have so many loopholes.
It takes someone with 7 years of post secondary education and 20 years of experience to find them. This is why only the rich can afford to use these people.

 

[Banana]

If by Government you mean form of government then you are not correct in saying that No European nation has a form of goverment as old as the USA. What about the UK, Sweden, Switzerland - all european countries with basically the same constitutions they had when the US was founded. I know there have been changes in the meantime but there have been changes to the US constitution as well.

Hmm, while I know that the monarchy basically has been unbroken, it was my understanding that constitutional monarchy as presently exists in UK and Sweden (don't know anything about Switzerland) is relatively new. But I then remembered that Magna Carta was way back, and Parliament likewise is as old. Doing a fast check on wiki, a case can be made for UK having the oldest Parliament, which is a bit different from what I had claimed.

You would think I'd know better to repeat others' claims before double checking them and choosing my words but apparently not.


EDIT: I think the correct phrasing is 'oldest working Constitution', rather than 'oldest continuous form of government'....

The banking crisis is very much driven by confidence(lack of) and many analysts this side of the Atlantic feel a major factor was the failure of GWB to bail out Lehman Brothers.

I've heard that line and I simply disagree. The fact is that 'confidence' is just a red herring from the fact that nobody has the money to loan out and banks themselves are insolvent by very definition of fractional reserve banking. Now, my view are definitely in minority, but that's what I think anyway.

There will always be winners and losers in any tax system but it is hard to imagine not having a tax system. IMHO any tax needs to be cheap to administer and to be perceived as fair to avoid creating resentment. A tax that restricts my choice of first (or only) car affects me more than a tax which means I can only afford four cars. Very few high earners are taxed so much that their freedom is resticted to any great extent. Many poorer people feel the burden of both direct and indirect taxes as a real shackle on their freedom.

Well, as I've said before, while it sounds all nice and good to give up some of money to help others, by coercion is simply the wrong way to do it. Furthermore because the act of coercion is involved in paying taxation, it is impossible to benefit from the taxation; the bottom line is always a net deficit and we are poorer for it.

 

[Rabbie]

Hmm, while I know that the monarchy basically has been unbroken, it was my understanding that constitutional monarchy as presently exists in UK and Sweden (don't know anything about Switzerland) is relatively new. But I then remembered that Magna Carta was way back, and Parliament likewise is as old. Doing a fast check on wiki, a case can be made for UK having the oldest Parliament, which is a bit different from what I had claimed.

You would think I'd know better to repeat others' claims before double checking them and choosing my words but apparently not.


EDIT: I think the correct phrasing is 'oldest working Constitution', rather than 'oldest continuous form of government'....

Magna Carta dates from 1215. The English parliament with elected members from about 1290.

The British Constitutional Monarchy basically dates from about 1714 when George 1 became king. As he did not speak English(being German) he had to delegate most of his power to the first Prime Minister(Robert Walpole). It was his great grandson( George III) who lost the american colonies approx 60 years later.

 

[dkinley]

I guess some comedian is trying to level the joke scores ... since this was a socialism thread, figured it belonged here

'Twas the night before elections
And all through the town
Tempers were flaring
Emotions all up and down!

I, in my bathrobe
With a cat in my lap
Had cut off the TV
Tired of political crap.

When all of a sudden
There arose such a noise
I peered out of my window
Saw Obama and his boys

They had come for my wallet
They wanted my pay
To give to the others
Who had not worked a day!

He snatched up my money
And quick as a wink
Jumped back on his bandwagon
As I gagged from the stink

He then rallied his henchmen
Who were pulling his cart
I could tell they were out
To tear my country apart!

' On Fannie, on Freddie,
On Biden and Ayers!
On Acorn, On Pelosi'
He screamed at the pairs!

They took off for his cause
And as he flew out of sight
I heard him laugh at the nation
Who wouldn't stand up and fight!

So I leave you to think On this one final note-
IF YOU DONT WANT SOCIALISM GET OUT AND VOTE!!!!

 

[Joe8915]

dk, that was great

 

[dkinley]

Ya know ... maybe he won't socialize anything. I've often heard that charity starts at home, but this guy apparently won't do anything for his own blood (including whatever uncle or cousin it was living in a mud hut somewhere).

Zeituni Onyango, the aunt so affectionately described in Mr Obama's best-selling memoir Dreams from My Father, lives in a disabled-access flat on a rundown public housing estate in South Boston.

A second relative believed to be the long-lost "Uncle Omar" described in the book was beaten by armed robbers with a "sawed-off rifle" while working in a corner shop in the Dorchester area of the city. He was later evicted from his one-bedroom flat for failing to pay $2,324.20 (£1,488)
arrears, according to the Boston Housing Court.

Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5042571.ece

But now that I think it about, this is exactly the bait and switch that Democrats like to pull. Vote for us - we promise everything - NOT!

-dK

 

[georgedwilkinson]

It's his brother. He's happy poor.

Doesn't matter, though. A bunch of Republicans took up a rather large collection for him.