The Covid cure has arrived!

[Isaac]

Are poisonous darts contageous?

A more accurate analogy would be if as soon as you got that dart, you started throwing darts at other people too. Would it be selfish of you to throw poisonous darts at people? That's Covid.

Same answer as I gave Col.

You thought at first that the vaccine would make people not be able to spread the virus. As you may recall when we were arguing about just how valuable your three months of data on the vaccine safety was. We find out now, that's simply not true. Getting the vaccine does not stop you from spreading covid. Information about the vaccine has generally been steadily changing, giving it progressively less value, as predicted that it might.

All in all I think the most powerful argument here is Steve's. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of reasons why people end up in the hospital. 95% of them are their own fault. So why is it only covid that would get this philosophical treatment?

The short answer is, there really is no reason. I think you've just been programmed by the news because the news chooses which medical problems to focus on and right now they are focusing on covid.

Steve is right. Whatever ire you're directing at the un vaccinated, if you want to be honest with yourself, begin directing an equal amount of ire at everyone who is fat or has deliberately exposed themselves to carcinogens or other diseases or generally has not taken care of their life, including reckless drivers (meaning about 3/4 of you), who end up in the hospital from accidents. And so on and so forth indefinitely.

 

[Isaac]

The problem is @ColinEssex gave no exceptions, he said:



It's pretty clear what set off this argument, the ridged statement that's being walked back now.

Well said.
There are plenty of reasons to wonder whether or not the vaccine we'll end up having been safe in the long-term, therefore the decision to get vaccinated does not come with zero drawbacks.

Now @Jon , factor that backwards into the point about obesity and car accidents , the avoidance of which actually do not come with any drawbacks.

Speaking of maths

 

[AccessBlaster]

People who don't have the vaccination or the booster are selfish, ignorant and ill informed. They care nothing for others.
col

Using this logic people in Africa and Haiti "are selfish, ignorant and ill informed." even though they were not given access to the vaccine.

 

[ColinEssex]

Just do what the hell you like, maybe you'll get it and die, who knows or cares. Not me for sure. All we can do is our best to be sensible.

I'm sick of reading these stupid arguments and comments here made by idiots. Good luck and goodbye.
Col

 

[Steve R.]

We need to step-back concerning the Covid pandemic. By step-back, I mean are we even being told the truth about Covid.
Based on empirical observations (not science) we are not being told the truth.

The blatant expression that we are being manipulated (lied to) comes from the 2020 US Presidential election.
When Trump was President and he called for travel restrictions, he was accused of being a racist xenophobe. Now that Biden is President, Biden issues a travel ban, and that is now considered the "correct" course of action. Clearly, the Covid messaging is designed not to inform the public but to make a political point.

• When Republicans held rallies, they were considered super-spreader events. A threat to the public health. When BLM/Antifa rioted and looted, that was an "allowed' activity as a form to legitimate protest. Amazingly, not considered a threat to the public health.
• The Biden administration wants us to all conform to autocratic dictatorial decrees to stamp-out Covid. Yet the US Southern border is wide-open with no attempt to stop the spread of Covid that may be hitching ride on the illegal immigrants. This sends a message that Covid must not really be that serious. So why should the public abide to selective enforcement?
• Viruses mutations are a known occurrence. But they are politically useful. Some pundits believe that the severity of each mutation is being overblown to serve the purpose of fomenting an endless "war" on Covid. Recall Rahm Emanuel evocation of "Never let a good crises go to waste". (Evidently this quote was authored by Winston Churchill).
• Note that the use of therapeutics in the treatment of Covid are apparently being purposely overlooked in favor of only using vaccines. Why?
• While not Covid related, Biden attempted to make the Kyle Rittenhouse trial about racism. Racism was not relevant, but to have the US President make false claims on this issue also raises the possibility that Biden is lying to us about Covid.
• Consider that Biden exhibited extreme vitriol accusing a border patrol agent of whipping an illegal immigrant and how this was also hyped by the media. As with Biden's comments concerning Rittenhouse, Biden was making false charges and vowed that the agent would be severely disciplined without Biden knowing all the facts or even adhering to following due process. Again, this affects the Covid narrative being "sold" to the public. Is it accurate and/or are we being mislead?
• Recognize the misleading messaging that the Biden administration is sending to the US public concerning gasoline prices. To supposedly bring down gasoline prices, the Biden administration is pleading OPEC pump more oil. The answer is obvious, let US oil and gas producers pump more oil, but that solution is never mentioned. Ironically, but maybe not, the left wing press refuses to point out that the US could produce more oil and gas, if allowed. Again, when the President sends a deceitful message to the public on one issue, why should anyone believe the President on another issue such as Covid?

Covid is a serious concern. So are other diseases, such as influenza. While Covid is a serious concern, we need to question whether the political leaders and even the medical establishment are even being truthful. Based on a tremendous amount of anecdotal observations were the political and medical establishment has lied to us, we need to be suspicious of what we are being told.

 

[AccessBlaster]

If you can't question the science without being labeled a conspiracy theorist, it's a problem. If governments around the world make it mandatory If you want to work or travel but give immunity to the manufacturer against lawsuits, it's a problem. If the internet bans debate about legitimate concerns, it's a problem.

 

[Steve R.]

If the internet bans debate about legitimate concerns, it's a problem.

I missed that one from my expose. Thanks.

 

[Isaac]

maybe you'll get it and die, who knows or cares. Not me for sure

Thank you for confirming our suspicions regarding the mendacity of your original words, which suggested that you might be selfless or care for others.

 

[AccessBlaster]

Next!

Bill Gates warns of bioterrorist smallpox pandemic​

 

[Isaac]

Just the fact that lunatics are now trying to vaccinate CHILDREN ought to inform your own assessment of how good/bad their judgment is...

Pfizer Claims Vaccine Will Reduce Average Daily Child COVID Deaths From Almost Zero To Almost Zero

NEW YORK, NY—In a moment celebrated by all hard-working lobbyists, Pfizer announced that the COVID-19 vaccine will reduce average daily child COVID deaths from almost zero all the way down to almost zero.

babylonbee.com

 

[moke123]

Fact check please. Name a single city where this is an actual problem.

Unvaccinated patients who caught COVID-19 fill hospital beds we need for others: Doctor

When intensive care units are full, the health care system backs up and there are delays in care for patients with conditions other than COVID-19.

www.usatoday.com

These 6 States Have Almost No ICU Beds Left As Covid Hospitalizations Soar

With Covid-19 infections climbing nationwide, some communities are facing a hospital capacity crunch.

www.forbes.com

Alabama Hospitals Have Run Out Of ICU Beds As COVID-19 Cases Surge

There are 29 more patients than there are open ICU beds as of Wednesday. The recent run, reminiscent of early in the pandemic, is occurring largely in states with the lowest vaccination rates.

www.npr.org

 

[Jon]

You thought at first that the vaccine would make people not be able to spread the virus. As you may recall when we were arguing about just how valuable your three months of data on the vaccine safety was. We find out now, that's simply not true. Getting the vaccine does not stop you from spreading covid. Information about the vaccine has generally been steadily changing, giving it progressively less value, as predicted that it might.

@Isaac, you made that up. I never said that. Refer to my previous post: https://www.access-programmers.co.u...-cure-has-arrived.314703/page-28#post-1790640

See this part of that post:

Double-vax reduces risk. It is not a binary safe/not safe thing. Hearing that the vaccinated caught Covid and died, and then weaponising that is to set up a straw-man argument that vaccines don't work.

My arguments are all about odds, not binary black and white thinking, which is how you are trying to portray things.

Not convinced? I also said in an even earlier post the following:

My understanding is that the vaccines have two effects:

a) Reduce your odds of catching it.

b) Reduce your odds of dying from it.

I don't think it is any more complicated than that.

Source: https://www.access-programmers.co.u...-cure-has-arrived.314703/page-22#post-1781026

I said "reduce the odds", not stop. If you reduce your odds of catching it, your odds of spreading it are also reduced.

All in all I think the most powerful argument here is Steve's. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of reasons why people end up in the hospital. 95% of them are their own fault. So why is it only covid that would get this philosophical treatment?

You can only catch Covid from someone else and it has killed millions worldwide. It's not rocket science.

The short answer is, there really is no reason. I think you've just been programmed by the news because the news chooses which medical problems to focus on and right now they are focusing on covid.

Covid has had a catastrophic impact on the number of people dying from infectious diseases, and that is after taking many precautionary measures. If you ignored the government advice, the situation would be even worse because complacency increases the rate of spread. The news depends on which channel you watch.

if you want to be honest with yourself, begin directing an equal amount of ire at everyone who is fat or has deliberately exposed themselves to carcinogens or other diseases or generally has not taken care of their life, including reckless drivers (meaning about 3/4 of you), who end up in the hospital from accidents.

A fat person is not contagious. We covered this already.

Reckless driving has nothing to do with Covid. If you want to bring it into the debate, how many people die per year from reckless driving verses the number from Covid? I believe in the US, it is around 40K per year. Covid? 345K. Nearly 10 times the number and that is after the preventative measures. Just as we have speed limits on the road, we also have vaccines to reduce Covid reckless driving.

 

[Jon]

Either the vaccine works or it doesn't.

Binary thinking. Vaccines are on a continuum of effectiveness. It is all about odds.

Fact check please. Name a single city where this is an actual problem.

It is more about how the spare capacity in hospitals is being affected. Look what happened in Italy where resources were stretched and they didn't have enough ventilators. Exponential diseases can quickly spiral out of control and the risk of using up all available capacity is high.

Whether others are vaccinated or not has no impact on you.

Vaccines alter someones ability to spread the virus if you catch Covid. It does impact me. Vaccines reduce someones ability to catch the virus (and thereafter spread it). It does impact me.

In fact the unvaccinated should be afraid of you according to some experts

They have nothing to fear. I'm keeping myself to myself!

 

[Steve R.]

Also in the news is that there is a body of scientists and knowledgeable lay people who are challenging the "official" mantra of the political establishment and Dr. Fauci. This is a followup post to my Lets Take a Step Back post and @AccessBlaster's post noting that legitimate debate on this issue is being suppressed. Dr. Scott Atlas just recently weighed into this topic.

Dr. Scott Atlas: Government bureaucrats were threatened by other input | Fox News Video

Former Trump COVID adviser reacts to Democrats’ pandemic policies as a new variant emerges on ‘The Next Revolution.’

video.foxnews.com

COVID omicron variant – how worried should you be?

The same questions are on everyone’s mind right now. How afraid should I be about the new COVID-19 variant? Will I be locked down again? Will I catch the virus despite being vaccinated?

www.foxnews.com

Politicians and the media don’t help us. Our leaders want to be perceived as acting ahead of the risk, which is why the travel advisories are being put in place even though this variant has already spread into Europe and likely on into the United States, so travel restrictions now will do little.

Media hyperbole inflames our fears and political posturing is transparently self-serving and fails to calm us. Only science can reassure, providing context and diagnostic, preventive and treatment tools against the new variant. Our leaders must provide constant timely support for these efforts, not pound the political drum to control us.

 

[AccessBlaster]

It has been reported Australia has the Omicron variant. How's that possible? Australia has strict testing procedures you can not travel to Australia without being fully vaccinated. So it has to be a fully vaccinated traveler carrying the bug, not the unvaccinated.

If we use Israel as the control and their over 78% vaccination rate one would have to assume it's not the unvaccinated filling their ICUs. It has to be the vaccinated spreading amongst themselves. It kinda blows the myth about the unvaccinated.

I am not making the case for not getting vaccinated, just asking why the scapegoating.

 

[Steve R.]

Biden just finished his lying presentation to the US public. This is political manipulation of a "crises" to control the public.
Not mentioned:

• Biden has imposed a travel ban, but not on illegal immigration into the US. For some magical reason are they somehow immune to Covid and its spread?
• Where are the reporters asking tough adversarial questions? When Trump imposed travel restrictions, the press was all over him for asserting that Trump's actions were racist and xenophobic.
• Biden never mentioned the role of therapeutics. The only treatment option presented by Biden was the vaccine and booster.

 

[Isaac]

@Isaac, you made that up. I never said that. Refer to my previous post: https://www.access-programmers.co.u...-cure-has-arrived.314703/page-28#post-1790640

See this part of that post:



My arguments are all about odds, not binary black and white thinking, which is how you are trying to portray things.

Not convinced? I also said in an even earlier post the following:



Source: https://www.access-programmers.co.u...-cure-has-arrived.314703/page-22#post-1781026

I said "reduce the odds", not stop. If you reduce your odds of catching it, your odds of spreading it are also reduced.


You can only catch Covid from someone else and it has killed millions worldwide. It's not rocket science.


Covid has had a catastrophic impact on the number of people dying from infectious diseases, and that is after taking many precautionary measures. If you ignored the government advice, the situation would be even worse because complacency increases the rate of spread. The news depends on which channel you watch.


A fat person is not contagious. We covered this already.

Reckless driving has nothing to do with Covid. If you want to bring it into the debate, how many people die per year from reckless driving verses the number from Covid? I believe in the US, it is around 40K per year. Covid? 345K. Nearly 10 times the number and that is after the preventative measures. Just as we have speed limits on the road, we also have vaccines to reduce Covid reckless driving.

I think you're a victim of binary thinking now.

Sure, fat people are not contagious. But so what? Their own personal choices cause them to end up taking a hospital bed that someone else needs. Exactly the same way but with less contagiousness and exponentiation, that a person who didn't take a vaccine might result in getting sick with covid and taking up a hospital bed that someone else needs.

I'm afraid the analogies still hold. You wish to reject the analogy based only on the difference between contagiousness. But the only thing that affects is how drastic the result is and how many other people are affected. It doesn't change the fact that personal choices are leading people to unnecessarily take up hospital beds exactly the same as the un vaccinated are.

As do the arguments about covid misinformation and progressively less value from the vaccine as we get more information and time goes on.

You wish to follow all government advice, but if everyone had followed the same advice as, for example, the state of New York did, our economy and people's lives and livelihoods would be many times more ruined than they got last year. Some states are doing things differently, such as Texas and Florida.

You see it as a binary choice. Take the government advice or don't take the government's advice. Unfortunately, the reality is much more nuanced.

 

[Isaac]

It has been reported Australia has the Omicron variant. How's that possible? Australia has strict testing procedures you can not travel to Australia without being fully vaccinated. So it has to be a fully vaccinated traveler carrying the bug, not the unvaccinated.

If we use Israel as the control and their over 78% vaccination rate one would have to assume it's not the unvaccinated filling their ICUs. It has to be the vaccinated spreading amongst themselves. It kinda blows the myth about the unvaccinated.

I am not making the case for not getting vaccinated, just asking why the scapegoating.

Because too many people have over simplified these issues rather than allowing for all aspects that need to be considered as I've said before.... Aspects that have things to do with more than just whether you will or won't catch covid, which is what the government has requested that we reduce all of our decisions in life down to.

I think it comes down to something that I've said before quite succinctly believe it or not

Science can sometimes tell us what it is.
It can never tell us what ought.

 

[Jon]

So you don't believe Biden?

I've no idea what Biden is saying. If he agrees with me or disagrees with me, that is irrelevant to how I make my decisions. But on average, I disagree with nearly everything he says!

So you don't think that the vaccinated can catch and spread COVID?

I've covered this a lot, and it appears we are back to binary thinking again. You can catch and spread Covid if you are double vaccinated, but your odds of catching and of spreading it are reduced. Why talk in binary absolutes of "it works or doesn't work" when we all know it operates along a continuum of effectiveness? The "it works 100%" verses "it doesn't work" argument is irrelevant. You don't need something working 100% effectively for it to have a significant impact. Drugs in medicine are mostly not guaranteed to work, nor are treatments. Instead, they have probabilities associated with them. Chemo may not save you, but it has a percentage chance of saving your life estimated by historical data.

Why are the only numbers we see the count of "cases"? Who cares how many "cases" there are? How many people -actual number -- in ICU's? How many are dying? Were the people in the ICU or who died treated with therapeutics in the EARLY stages of the disease?

No data, poor future planning. Having the number of cases helps you calculate the rate of spread, the percentage dying and so on. It also helps assess risk. It also helps data nerds like me spread the fear.

 

[Jon]

On Fox, after they ran Biden's anouncement of the travel ban, they ran Biden's speech from January 2020 where he was calling Trump a racist for instituting a travel ban You can't make this stuff up

And we had to skip a letter of the Greek alphabet because it might offend China

Biden is an utter hypocrite. I remember him banging on about Trump being a xenophobic racist because of his travel bans. Same for all the left wing media who ran with this narrative 24/7. When Biden does it, its the smart thing to do. You can't believe a word they say nowadays.