The Covid cure has arrived! (1 Viewer)

[ColinEssex]

People who don't have the vaccination or the booster are selfish, ignorant and ill informed. They care nothing for others.
col

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Col, I think the "ill informed" part is most important of the three that you named, but the other two parts are there to some degree.

I have a cousin who, because of an auto-immune disease, cannot take normal vaccines. He doesn't fall into your three categories. But I also know that it used to be that to get kids into school here in the USA, you needed them to have their shots. There was such a thing as religious exceptions, but they were harder to get.

As to me, I've gotten both Pfizer shots and the Pfizer booster. I'm high-risk and know it. My wife is the same way. Trying to keep peace in the family, I've soft-pedaled it for my stepdaughter and her partner. My stepson and his teen-aged kids are vaccinated now. My younger stepdaughter and her family are vaccinated. I will not point fingers to those who refuse, because in the end analysis, it will always be their choice. Just like my brother-in-law is neglecting his diabetes even though his neuropathy is bad enough that he has lost a toe. He has made the choice to neglect himself. And it is a self-correcting situation.

The only COVID-related thing I'm worried about now is the new omicron variant because we don't know if that will be affected by the current vaccines.

 

[Isaac]

People who don't have the vaccination or the booster are selfish, ignorant and ill informed. They care nothing for others.
col

Give me an example of the people they are hurting?

And remember, your example can't be someone who is vaccinated because they're already having the protection that they want by having gotten the vaccine.

What you are saying would be like offering people shields to protect themselves against a dart, and then claiming that the people who don't want the shield are being selfish.

That's nonsensical. The only people they're hurting according to your theories is themselves right?

People who demand to control other people's bodies are selfish and care nothing for others.

 

[ColinEssex]

Give me an example of the people they are hurting?

And remember, your example can't be someone who is vaccinated because they're already having the protection that they want by having gotten the vaccine.

What you are saying would be like offering people shields to protect themselves against a dart, and then claiming that the people who don't want the shield are being selfish.

That's nonsensical. The only people they're hurting according to your theories is themselves right?

People who demand to control other people's bodies are selfish and care nothing for others.

It is possible to be asymptomatic and have the virus, therefore it is possible to infect others unknowingly, they could then die because of your infection.

It's quite simple, we all need to do our best to live with this worldwide pandemic. If that means more lockdowns etc then so be it. Its not an invasion of human rights to wear a mask or get vaccinated, it's a bloody necessity if we want to return to some sort of normal.
Why are Americans so paranoid?

Col

 

[moke123]

Give me an example of the people they are hurting?

How about all the people who can't get a hospital bed because the hospital is overwhelmed with the unvaccinated.
Not to mention the doctors and nurses who have to care for them.

 

[Steve R.]

How about all the people who can't get a hospital bed because the hospital is overwhelmed with the unvaccinated.
Not to mention the doctors and nurses who have to care for them.

Based on that logic, hospital should not treat anyone who is drunk, on a drug overdose, sucide attempts, or suffers medical consequences from not being responsible when it comes to eating correctly, such as obesity. Doctors and nurses should not have to care for anyone who has a self-inflicted medical problem.

 

[Jon]

What you are saying would be like offering people shields to protect themselves against a dart, and then claiming that the people who don't want the shield are being selfish.

Are poisonous darts contageous?

A more accurate analogy would be if as soon as you got that dart, you started throwing darts at other people too. Would it be selfish of you to throw poisonous darts at people? That's Covid.

 

[Jon]

Based on that logic, hospital should not treat anyone who is drunk, on a drug overdose, sucide attempts, or suffers medical consequences from not being responsible when it comes to eating correctly, such as obesity. Doctors and nurses should not have to care for anyone who has a self-inflicted medical problem.

If you are obese and end up in hospital, you take up one bed. If you get infected with Covid, you may also take up one bed. But you may also be infecting others in a cause and effect chain that leads to an exponential rise in the number of beds taken up.

The maths...

Average person infects say 2 others. Your infection leads to 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 other infections, ignoring for the sake of simplicity any overlap where other spreaders could cannibalise some of those figures, if that makes sense.

Any arguments that fail to take into consideration the contagious and exponential spreadability of Covid is to erroneously miss the key aspect of this disease.

 

[AccessBlaster]

The problem is @ColinEssex gave no exceptions, he said:

People who don't have the vaccination or the booster are selfish, ignorant and ill informed. They care nothing for others.
col

It's pretty clear what set off this argument, the ridged statement that's being walked back now.

 

[Steve R.]

If you are obese and end up in hospital, you take up one bed. If you get infected with Covid, you may also take up one bed. But you may also be infecting others in a cause and effect chain that leads to an exponential rise in the number of beds taken up.

On the surface that is valid, but there are nuances that belay that assertion. Those who have an infectious disease can be placed into isolation wards. Additionally, how many people with Covid actually have to be hospitalized considering that there are therapeutics and there is a "pool" of people who through acquired immunity or natural immunity won't get Covid. Finally, what is the actual transmission rate from an infected person to a non-infected person?

This is similar the discussion over "safety", for a purist radical there is never enough "safety". Something more can always be done. But at what cost? The reality is that total "safety" is unrealistic as we live in a world or risk.

Additionally, my comment was in response to the unethical implications that if you have Disease "A", you are depriving someone else of having their life saved. That opens the door to selectively treating people based on some political criteria. Triage of patients is a necessary action, but the avocation that a person with a certain disease does not deserve treatment is misguided.

 

[Jon]

Those who have an infectious disease can be placed into isolation wards.

They are contagious before they are placed in isolation wards. They can also infect hospital staff.

Additionally, how many people with Covid actually have to be hospitalized considering that there are therapeutics

More than if an obese person was hospitalised, who cannot exponentially spread their obesity.

there is a "pool" of people who through acquired immunity or natural immunity won't get Covid

On average, they have already spread Covid, hence their immunity. Consequently, they contribute to the hospitalisation numbers.

Finally, what is the actual transmission rate from an infected person to a non-infected person?

I tried to look it up but I'm short on time. Anything greater than one leads to the persistence of Covid.

This is similar the discussion over "safety", for a purist radical there is never enough "safety". Something more can always be done. But at what cost? The reality is that total "safety" is unrealistic as we live in a world or risk.

I agree with the concept of safety and what level is deemed an acceptable risk. Flu kills more people than many realise, yet we live with that level of risk.

 

[Steve R.]

I agree with the concept of safety and what level is deemed an acceptable risk. Flu kills more people than many realise, yet we live with that level of risk.

Which actually leads to what some medical pundits have begun to imply: That that Covid and influenza (flu) are somewhat equal as infectious agents. For reasons unknown, we have a insane mass hysteria event concerning Covid yet the deleterious effects of influenza are ignored.

Coronavirus vs. flu deaths

The first thing to know is that deaths due to COVID-19 and the flu are not counted in the same way. This means comparing the numbers isn’t as straightforward as we would like.

Each death due to influenza in the U.S. does not have to be reported, so there is never a direct count. Each flu season, the CDC estimates deaths from the flu based on in-hospital deaths and death certificate data. They continue to update the data on their website as they collect it. Therefore, numbers from the last two flu seasons are not considered final just yet.

Conversely, each death due to COVID-19 is being recorded. The numbers you see and hear about are not estimates. So you can see how comparing mortality rates between the two isn’t exact at this point.

That said, here’s a quick look at the number of cases and deaths for the last two flu seasons (again, not final) and COVID-19 to date:

 

[Jon]

Which actually leads to what some medical pundits have begun to imply: That that Covid and influenza (flu) are somewhat equal as infectious agents.

If that were true, then I would agree that it would be insane. Yet infectious disease death rates have rocketed throughout the world since Covid hit. What is interesting is that flu rates have dropped significantly. I wonder if there will be some kind of evolutionary battle between Covid and flu, where they cannibalise each others infections. When someone is ill with Covid, perhaps they are less exposed to flu.

 

[Isaac]

How about all the people who can't get a hospital bed because the hospital is overwhelmed with the unvaccinated.
Not to mention the doctors and nurses who have to care for them.

I think I'm going to reject the doctors and nurses argument, personally. That's the same job they go to every day.

The people who can't get a bed when the hospital is overwhelmed with the Un vaccinated, okay @moke123 . Point taken, I will have to think about that. Thanks

 

[Isaac]

It is possible to be asymptomatic and have the virus, therefore it is possible to infect others unknowingly, they could then die because of your infection.

Including vaccinated people. Vaccinated people also spread the virus quite commonly.

So?

 

[Isaac]

Are poisonous darts contageous?

A more accurate analogy would be if as soon as you got that dart, you started throwing darts at other people too. Would it be selfish of you to throw poisonous darts at people? That's Covid.

Same answer as I gave Col.

You thought at first that the vaccine would make people not be able to spread the virus. As you may recall when we were arguing about just how valuable your three months of data on the vaccine safety was. We find out now, that's simply not true. Getting the vaccine does not stop you from spreading covid. Information about the vaccine has generally been steadily changing, giving it progressively less value, as predicted that it might.

All in all I think the most powerful argument here is Steve's. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of reasons why people end up in the hospital. 95% of them are their own fault. So why is it only covid that would get this philosophical treatment?

The short answer is, there really is no reason. I think you've just been programmed by the news because the news chooses which medical problems to focus on and right now they are focusing on covid.

Steve is right. Whatever ire you're directing at the un vaccinated, if you want to be honest with yourself, begin directing an equal amount of ire at everyone who is fat or has deliberately exposed themselves to carcinogens or other diseases or generally has not taken care of their life, including reckless drivers (meaning about 3/4 of you), who end up in the hospital from accidents. And so on and so forth indefinitely.

 

[Isaac]

The problem is @ColinEssex gave no exceptions, he said:



It's pretty clear what set off this argument, the ridged statement that's being walked back now.

Well said.
There are plenty of reasons to wonder whether or not the vaccine we'll end up having been safe in the long-term, therefore the decision to get vaccinated does not come with zero drawbacks.

Now @Jon , factor that backwards into the point about obesity and car accidents , the avoidance of which actually do not come with any drawbacks.

Speaking of maths

 

[AccessBlaster]

People who don't have the vaccination or the booster are selfish, ignorant and ill informed. They care nothing for others.
col

Using this logic people in Africa and Haiti "are selfish, ignorant and ill informed." even though they were not given access to the vaccine.

 

[ColinEssex]

Just do what the hell you like, maybe you'll get it and die, who knows or cares. Not me for sure. All we can do is our best to be sensible.

I'm sick of reading these stupid arguments and comments here made by idiots. Good luck and goodbye.
Col

 

[Steve R.]

We need to step-back concerning the Covid pandemic. By step-back, I mean are we even being told the truth about Covid.
Based on empirical observations (not science) we are not being told the truth.

The blatant expression that we are being manipulated (lied to) comes from the 2020 US Presidential election.
When Trump was President and he called for travel restrictions, he was accused of being a racist xenophobe. Now that Biden is President, Biden issues a travel ban, and that is now considered the "correct" course of action. Clearly, the Covid messaging is designed not to inform the public but to make a political point.

• When Republicans held rallies, they were considered super-spreader events. A threat to the public health. When BLM/Antifa rioted and looted, that was an "allowed' activity as a form to legitimate protest. Amazingly, not considered a threat to the public health.
• The Biden administration wants us to all conform to autocratic dictatorial decrees to stamp-out Covid. Yet the US Southern border is wide-open with no attempt to stop the spread of Covid that may be hitching ride on the illegal immigrants. This sends a message that Covid must not really be that serious. So why should the public abide to selective enforcement?
• Viruses mutations are a known occurrence. But they are politically useful. Some pundits believe that the severity of each mutation is being overblown to serve the purpose of fomenting an endless "war" on Covid. Recall Rahm Emanuel evocation of "Never let a good crises go to waste". (Evidently this quote was authored by Winston Churchill).
• Note that the use of therapeutics in the treatment of Covid are apparently being purposely overlooked in favor of only using vaccines. Why?
• While not Covid related, Biden attempted to make the Kyle Rittenhouse trial about racism. Racism was not relevant, but to have the US President make false claims on this issue also raises the possibility that Biden is lying to us about Covid.
• Consider that Biden exhibited extreme vitriol accusing a border patrol agent of whipping an illegal immigrant and how this was also hyped by the media. As with Biden's comments concerning Rittenhouse, Biden was making false charges and vowed that the agent would be severely disciplined without Biden knowing all the facts or even adhering to following due process. Again, this affects the Covid narrative being "sold" to the public. Is it accurate and/or are we being mislead?
• Recognize the misleading messaging that the Biden administration is sending to the US public concerning gasoline prices. To supposedly bring down gasoline prices, the Biden administration is pleading OPEC pump more oil. The answer is obvious, let US oil and gas producers pump more oil, but that solution is never mentioned. Ironically, but maybe not, the left wing press refuses to point out that the US could produce more oil and gas, if allowed. Again, when the President sends a deceitful message to the public on one issue, why should anyone believe the President on another issue such as Covid?

Covid is a serious concern. So are other diseases, such as influenza. While Covid is a serious concern, we need to question whether the political leaders and even the medical establishment are even being truthful. Based on a tremendous amount of anecdotal observations were the political and medical establishment has lied to us, we need to be suspicious of what we are being told.