The Covid cure has arrived!

[AccessBlaster]

 

[Isaac]

View attachment 96330

Dude you get the best memes

 

[AccessBlaster]

It's apparent the vaccines are not performing as advertised. Hence the need for new variants to explain why the vaccines are not performing as advertised.

 

[Isaac]

Some college friends have a big party every February. They've cancelled it for the past two years but decided to have it this year. The invitation came with "vaccination required". Despite being vaccinated, I declined. I cannot support vaccine passports in any way, shape, or form even when I really want to go to the party

I'm the exact same way Pat. Even though I have chosen to get vaccinated, I don't support events or institutions who are trying to force people to.

It's a matter of principle and consistency.

 

[Isaac]

This particular group of friends all live in the Boston area and are mostly Democrats but they're not rabid and they are definitely not Socialists or Marxists. They've always been rational and none suffered from TDS that I could see. A couple even became fans after they saw Trump's policies. But COVID has made even the sane crazy scared.

That's very interesting to hear. I do seem to remember Democrats from years ago who were pretty good people with a number of reasonably good ideas and what now seem to be minor differences between them and Republicans.

The memory is fading a little but I know it existed!

 

[ColinEssex]

People who don't have the vaccination or the booster are selfish, ignorant and ill informed. They care nothing for others.
col

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Col, I think the "ill informed" part is most important of the three that you named, but the other two parts are there to some degree.

I have a cousin who, because of an auto-immune disease, cannot take normal vaccines. He doesn't fall into your three categories. But I also know that it used to be that to get kids into school here in the USA, you needed them to have their shots. There was such a thing as religious exceptions, but they were harder to get.

As to me, I've gotten both Pfizer shots and the Pfizer booster. I'm high-risk and know it. My wife is the same way. Trying to keep peace in the family, I've soft-pedaled it for my stepdaughter and her partner. My stepson and his teen-aged kids are vaccinated now. My younger stepdaughter and her family are vaccinated. I will not point fingers to those who refuse, because in the end analysis, it will always be their choice. Just like my brother-in-law is neglecting his diabetes even though his neuropathy is bad enough that he has lost a toe. He has made the choice to neglect himself. And it is a self-correcting situation.

The only COVID-related thing I'm worried about now is the new omicron variant because we don't know if that will be affected by the current vaccines.

 

[Isaac]

People who don't have the vaccination or the booster are selfish, ignorant and ill informed. They care nothing for others.
col

Give me an example of the people they are hurting?

And remember, your example can't be someone who is vaccinated because they're already having the protection that they want by having gotten the vaccine.

What you are saying would be like offering people shields to protect themselves against a dart, and then claiming that the people who don't want the shield are being selfish.

That's nonsensical. The only people they're hurting according to your theories is themselves right?

People who demand to control other people's bodies are selfish and care nothing for others.

 

[ColinEssex]

Give me an example of the people they are hurting?

And remember, your example can't be someone who is vaccinated because they're already having the protection that they want by having gotten the vaccine.

What you are saying would be like offering people shields to protect themselves against a dart, and then claiming that the people who don't want the shield are being selfish.

That's nonsensical. The only people they're hurting according to your theories is themselves right?

People who demand to control other people's bodies are selfish and care nothing for others.

It is possible to be asymptomatic and have the virus, therefore it is possible to infect others unknowingly, they could then die because of your infection.

It's quite simple, we all need to do our best to live with this worldwide pandemic. If that means more lockdowns etc then so be it. Its not an invasion of human rights to wear a mask or get vaccinated, it's a bloody necessity if we want to return to some sort of normal.
Why are Americans so paranoid?

Col

 

[moke123]

Give me an example of the people they are hurting?

How about all the people who can't get a hospital bed because the hospital is overwhelmed with the unvaccinated.
Not to mention the doctors and nurses who have to care for them.

 

[Steve R.]

How about all the people who can't get a hospital bed because the hospital is overwhelmed with the unvaccinated.
Not to mention the doctors and nurses who have to care for them.

Based on that logic, hospital should not treat anyone who is drunk, on a drug overdose, sucide attempts, or suffers medical consequences from not being responsible when it comes to eating correctly, such as obesity. Doctors and nurses should not have to care for anyone who has a self-inflicted medical problem.

 

[Jon]

What you are saying would be like offering people shields to protect themselves against a dart, and then claiming that the people who don't want the shield are being selfish.

Are poisonous darts contageous?

A more accurate analogy would be if as soon as you got that dart, you started throwing darts at other people too. Would it be selfish of you to throw poisonous darts at people? That's Covid.

 

[Jon]

Based on that logic, hospital should not treat anyone who is drunk, on a drug overdose, sucide attempts, or suffers medical consequences from not being responsible when it comes to eating correctly, such as obesity. Doctors and nurses should not have to care for anyone who has a self-inflicted medical problem.

If you are obese and end up in hospital, you take up one bed. If you get infected with Covid, you may also take up one bed. But you may also be infecting others in a cause and effect chain that leads to an exponential rise in the number of beds taken up.

The maths...

Average person infects say 2 others. Your infection leads to 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 other infections, ignoring for the sake of simplicity any overlap where other spreaders could cannibalise some of those figures, if that makes sense.

Any arguments that fail to take into consideration the contagious and exponential spreadability of Covid is to erroneously miss the key aspect of this disease.

 

[AccessBlaster]

The problem is @ColinEssex gave no exceptions, he said:

People who don't have the vaccination or the booster are selfish, ignorant and ill informed. They care nothing for others.
col

It's pretty clear what set off this argument, the ridged statement that's being walked back now.

 

[Steve R.]

If you are obese and end up in hospital, you take up one bed. If you get infected with Covid, you may also take up one bed. But you may also be infecting others in a cause and effect chain that leads to an exponential rise in the number of beds taken up.

On the surface that is valid, but there are nuances that belay that assertion. Those who have an infectious disease can be placed into isolation wards. Additionally, how many people with Covid actually have to be hospitalized considering that there are therapeutics and there is a "pool" of people who through acquired immunity or natural immunity won't get Covid. Finally, what is the actual transmission rate from an infected person to a non-infected person?

This is similar the discussion over "safety", for a purist radical there is never enough "safety". Something more can always be done. But at what cost? The reality is that total "safety" is unrealistic as we live in a world or risk.

Additionally, my comment was in response to the unethical implications that if you have Disease "A", you are depriving someone else of having their life saved. That opens the door to selectively treating people based on some political criteria. Triage of patients is a necessary action, but the avocation that a person with a certain disease does not deserve treatment is misguided.

 

[Jon]

Those who have an infectious disease can be placed into isolation wards.

They are contagious before they are placed in isolation wards. They can also infect hospital staff.

Additionally, how many people with Covid actually have to be hospitalized considering that there are therapeutics

More than if an obese person was hospitalised, who cannot exponentially spread their obesity.

there is a "pool" of people who through acquired immunity or natural immunity won't get Covid

On average, they have already spread Covid, hence their immunity. Consequently, they contribute to the hospitalisation numbers.

Finally, what is the actual transmission rate from an infected person to a non-infected person?

I tried to look it up but I'm short on time. Anything greater than one leads to the persistence of Covid.

This is similar the discussion over "safety", for a purist radical there is never enough "safety". Something more can always be done. But at what cost? The reality is that total "safety" is unrealistic as we live in a world or risk.

I agree with the concept of safety and what level is deemed an acceptable risk. Flu kills more people than many realise, yet we live with that level of risk.

 

[Steve R.]

I agree with the concept of safety and what level is deemed an acceptable risk. Flu kills more people than many realise, yet we live with that level of risk.

Which actually leads to what some medical pundits have begun to imply: That that Covid and influenza (flu) are somewhat equal as infectious agents. For reasons unknown, we have a insane mass hysteria event concerning Covid yet the deleterious effects of influenza are ignored.

Coronavirus vs. flu deaths

The first thing to know is that deaths due to COVID-19 and the flu are not counted in the same way. This means comparing the numbers isn’t as straightforward as we would like.

Each death due to influenza in the U.S. does not have to be reported, so there is never a direct count. Each flu season, the CDC estimates deaths from the flu based on in-hospital deaths and death certificate data. They continue to update the data on their website as they collect it. Therefore, numbers from the last two flu seasons are not considered final just yet.

Conversely, each death due to COVID-19 is being recorded. The numbers you see and hear about are not estimates. So you can see how comparing mortality rates between the two isn’t exact at this point.

That said, here’s a quick look at the number of cases and deaths for the last two flu seasons (again, not final) and COVID-19 to date:

 

[Jon]

Which actually leads to what some medical pundits have begun to imply: That that Covid and influenza (flu) are somewhat equal as infectious agents.

If that were true, then I would agree that it would be insane. Yet infectious disease death rates have rocketed throughout the world since Covid hit. What is interesting is that flu rates have dropped significantly. I wonder if there will be some kind of evolutionary battle between Covid and flu, where they cannibalise each others infections. When someone is ill with Covid, perhaps they are less exposed to flu.

 

[Isaac]

How about all the people who can't get a hospital bed because the hospital is overwhelmed with the unvaccinated.
Not to mention the doctors and nurses who have to care for them.

I think I'm going to reject the doctors and nurses argument, personally. That's the same job they go to every day.

The people who can't get a bed when the hospital is overwhelmed with the Un vaccinated, okay @moke123 . Point taken, I will have to think about that. Thanks

 

[Isaac]

It is possible to be asymptomatic and have the virus, therefore it is possible to infect others unknowingly, they could then die because of your infection.

Including vaccinated people. Vaccinated people also spread the virus quite commonly.

So?